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What IS a wine club?

 
Author SwirlGirl
Registered User
#1  Posted: Oct 9, 2009 13:54  

Is this where people get together to drink wine, or is this something done over the web where we order a certain number of bottles every month?
Author dontime
Contributor
#2  Posted: Oct 9, 2009 14:05  

Yes.
Author Capaneus
Registered User
#3  Posted: Oct 9, 2009 18:08 | Edited by: Capaneus  

Is this where people get together to drink wine, or is this something done over the web where we order a certain number of bottles every month?

If you're asking about the threads on this Forum about "Philadelphia Wine Club" and "Pittsburgh Wine Gathering", then the former. But the term "Club" is a bit unusual in this context: more often I've seen them called "groups", or some similarly informal-sounding term.

In my limited experience, "Wine Clubs" are usually some variation on your second definition, whether online or not.
Author SwirlGirl
Registered User
#4  Posted: Oct 10, 2009 05:44  

Do you "guys" use online wine clubs, or go to the state store? What are the advantages/disadvantages of both?
Author dontime
Contributor
#5  Posted: Oct 10, 2009 07:46  

Do you "guys" use online wine clubs, or go to the state store? What are the advantages/disadvantages of both?

Most wineries and clubs will not ship to PA, so unless you have an alternative shipping address in a "free" state, you're stuck with the state stores.

The state stores typically have much less selection than non government run stores in other states, but as the largest purchaser of wine in the world, the state does get some pretty decent deals. Of course you have to pay the 1936 Johnstown flood tax on every bottle, but that is just a temporary tax, so I am sure it won't be for much longer...
Author Capaneus
Registered User
#6  Posted: Oct 10, 2009 18:04  

Do you "guys" use online wine clubs, or go to the state store? What are the advantages/disadvantages of both?

Wine Clubs are good ways of forcing yourself to try new things. Period. But they are, as it happens, a fairly good way of doing that, and that's something all wine lovers should do, as some point in the learning process, and it can be very hard to do if you have to make your own choices.

Many out-of-state sellers, wine clubs included, will either outright ship to Pennsylvania (which is legal, by the way), or work with you to find the wink-and-nudge alternative that will allow you to drink their wine. Some won't, unfortunately, because the Commonwealth has successfully intimidated many of them. But, with a little research, you should find one that fits and is willing to fill your needs, whatever they may be.

Having said that, the point of wine clubs is that you buy their choices.

The State Stores are retailers, and so presumably are dedicated to putting you together with your choices.

The usual line is that they are not very good at that. I'll presume to disagree. The fact is that they have their strengths and weaknesses, and offer often surprisingly good choices at great prices.

To start with their greatest weakness: they are constrained, by law, in their pricing. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but it appears to me that they must sell items at a fairly set markup over their cost. That markup, when you factor in the Flood Tax, is fairly steep. Now, one might think that means their prices are uniformly bad. One would be wrong. Fact is, other retailers' markups are all over the map: they may sell some wines at a loss, and sell others at a steep premium. The PLCB will never do either.

Following the implications of that can be tricky, in some cases. On the simple end, any wine which is extremely popular on release will almost always be a bad deal at a State Store: other retailers will use them as loss-leaders to get traffic in the door, and we will not match that. These are the prices on which most of the complaints will be based, because no matter how much we'd like to think we are each an original, the fact is that a ridiculously high percentage of wine buyers are usually after a surprisingly small number of labels.

Conversely, any wine which goes up in price after wholesale release, usually due to great reviews, is likely to be a good deal at a State Store, if it can be found, because other retailers will often jack up the prices. Likewise older wines, depending on how you feel about storage. And note I said wholesale release: the price which distributors, and the PLCB, pay for a wine is often set long before the wine is actually available. If demand for the wine subsequently rises, most prices in the supply chain will follow suit. But the PLCB will have locked its own cost down before the rise, and their retail price will be based on that. So those wines will often sell at considerably lower prices here than they do elsewhere.

And these days the PLCB has started using its purchasing power much more aggressively, and the result, in Chairman's Selections and elsewhere, are prices that can be absolutely remarkable.

As to choice: in my experience, the better State Stores will have a range of wines comparable to many of the better independent retailers. The thing is, they will all have the same choice, in the main. Each store will only vary slightly in its offerings, whereas across the river in Jersey competing retailers will have entirely different stock.

On the other hand, that slight store-to-store variation adds up: if you learn to use the entire PLCB system, I daresay it is the greatest single selection available anywhere. And that is not so very hard to do, given the online resources available.

The bottom line is that I probably would be unhappy if I had to use the PLCB alone. But I think I'd be much more unhappy if I no longer had the PLCB to use.

Hope some of this helps. Almost all of it has complicating factors, so let me know if you have questions.
Author dontime
Contributor
#7  Posted: Oct 10, 2009 20:53  

Many out-of-state sellers, wine clubs included, will either outright ship to Pennsylvania (which is legal, by the way), or work with you to find the wink-and-nudge alternative that will allow you to drink their wine.
Capaneua, I'm sure we would all appreciate a list of out-of-state sellers who will ship to PA.
Author Capaneus
Registered User
#8  Posted: Oct 10, 2009 21:07  

Capaneus, I'm sure we would all appreciate a list of out-of-state sellers who will ship to PA.
Hmmm... I have no idea whether naming names would matter, but I see no great value in doing it publicly. If you mean that as anything more than a rhetorical flourish, get me your contact information and I'll try to squeeze a complete accounting out of my fractious neurons.

For the purposes of this exchange, I will just say that in the last six months I have made four Web purchases (not counting you-know-who), of which two required me to ship to another state; one required me to claim responsibility for the shipment, which they were then happy to handle; and one shipped happily, no questions asked.

I guess there's no reason not to state that Wine.com and WineBid will not ship to Pennsylvania. Or, one would assume, color outside the lines. But I'd say that proportion is probably about right: roughly half of my purchases get delivered to my Philadelphia door without any great fuss.
Author SwirlGirl
Registered User
#9  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 04:44  

Thanks for your responses. So, is it legal (definitely!) or not, to get wine shipped to PA? Right now, I think I'm just happy enough with the store selections, and a few times a year, I can get wine from other places when traveling.

Is it legal to buy in another state when I'm there, and bring it home?
Author Capaneus
Registered User
#10  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 05:45  

So, is it legal (definitely!) or not, to get wine shipped to PA?

Normally, in cases when laws like this are struck down, the judge will keep the old regulations in place until the legislature can replace them. In this instance, the judge pointedly did not. So there is no law currently in place regulating shipping wine to Pennsylvania.

But.

There is still the separate issue of taxes, and that's how the Commonwealth has been trying to keep the lid on - not by prosecuting, but by using the threat of prosecution to make some retailers and shippers feel it's not worth the trouble. So some dealers still won't do it, just in case.

In reality, I believe the Commonwealth would never be able to take a case for evasion of taxes to court: theoretically, you owe taxes any time you buy anything out of state, but no-one cares. To single out wine would raise judicial eyebrows sky-high.
Author Mark
Contributor
#11  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 06:57  

So there is no law currently in place regulating shipping wine to Pennsylvania.

There is a Direct Shipping provision outlined on the PLCB web site:
http://www.lcb.state.pa.us/plcb/cwp/view.asp?a=132 8&q=554550&plcbNav=|32369|

The page states among other things:
"Under the law, only wines that are not available in Pennsylvania may be purchased from a licensed Direct Wine Shipper via the Internet."

So there is a law of some kind.

The above web page also outlines the taxes and handling fee(!) they will collect for the privilege of allowing someone to ship wine "directly" to...wait for it...your nearest Wine & Spirits Store! The shippers no doubt also pay a fee to get licensed to do this.

But if a winery or shipper elects not to participate in this program and ships directly to consumers' doors in PA, are they breaking any laws?
Author jlburd
Registered User
#12  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 07:32  

Interesting discussion of the difference between the law & enforcement. To some degree this is the same as the spitting laws (or various sex laws) that exist on state books w/o enforcement.

I think Cap is possible incorrect on the legal technicality but practically speaking he's spot on. The trick is just getting the shipper to agree to ship here. There's a chance that PA may amend the law to allow shipping but with a surcharge or tax that makes it undesirable for the shipper (probably then prompting another restraint of trade lawsuit). Should that occur it would be legal but the winery or producer would pass the cost on to you or choose to avoid PA.

To Mark's question I'm guessing the PLCB's answer is yes & that may be enough disincentive for many. IT seems, however, many are also not intimidated. Given the current state of things it may be better that the law stay in limbo, since we can get out of state stuff with some luck or effort & we still do have access to alot of wine, even if it's not perfect.
Author Capaneus
Registered User
#13  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 10:12  

Mark:

So there is a law of some kind.

Unless State lawmakers passed a law in the dead of night, and both the press, and those of us looking for one missed it, there isn't.

Unfortunately, the Commonwealth has tried to obscure that fact with copious misrepresentations of the laws that do exist, especially regarding taxes and their collection; and by occasionally acting as if they'd just forgotten that they lost the case, and pretending the old statutes are still in effect.

Your quote strikes me as belonging to the second category.

Yeah, a quick look-see, tells me they identify the law in question as "Act 10 of 2002". The decision would have voided this along with all other statutes, since it was pursuant to the Supreme Court ruling in 2005.

A quick Google yields the following:

http://www.allbusiness.com/north-america/united-st ates-pennsylvania/4112742-1.html

Which I think describes the situation as it still exists.

jlburd:

Given the current state of things it may be better that the law stay in limbo, since we can get out of state stuff with some luck or effort & we still do have access to alot of wine, even if it's not perfect.

Exactly my opinion as well: given all that is at stake, and the influence of the interests involved, I think it is highly unlikely that we will like whatever eventually gets passed. Particularly since I have been singularly unimpressed by some of the laws passed in other States.
Author Capaneus
Registered User
#14  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 10:45  

Oh, but they are clever little weasels, they are! I did a little more digging, and came across the Commonwealth's rationale: they hold that the judge's decision, which found the law unconstitutional and "enjoined the Commonwealth from enforcing its provisions" did not void the law, just kept them from enforcing it! So the old law stands, but, you know, not really. That's seriously twisted, and laughable, but some lawyer somewhere deserves a little credit for trying.

But seriously, folks, there's no law. The injunction isn't temporary, so there can never be any penalties imposed under the old laws. And laws cannot be applied retroactively, so whatever penalties come with a new law will not apply to anything happening now. Under their argument, that may be the case, but you should fell really really guilty, because it's illegal, or at least, you know naughty

I actually really like that, but then I'm a bit twisted myself.
Author SwirlGirl
Registered User
#15  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 11:36 | Edited by: SwirlGirl  

Buying over the web--I'm not there yet, especially after reading this. I'm new to wine, and you (collectively) are proving.....something....about wine people. How about my question of whether it's legal to physically buy wine out of state, and bring it home? I seriously didn't just fall off the turnip truck, I just don't know. A few years ago I went to a state store to buy beer. I didn't see it in the front so I went in the back room where the beer (I thought) boxes were.....I don't go to that store anymore!
Author Capaneus
Registered User
#16  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 12:19  

It's legal to buy. But you then owe the Commonwealth tax on the purchase. And not paying taxes is illegal.

If you're honestly worried about it, that's the bottom line.

Mind you, I am way too pretty to thrive within the confines of a penal institution, and I buy wine on the Internet - and in Jersey - like some mutated super-phylloxera infestation was about to strike. Real soon.
Author SwirlGirl
Registered User
#17  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 14:03  

Mind you, I am way too pretty to thrive within the confines of a penal institution, and I buy wine on the Internet - and in Jersey - like some mutated super-phylloxera infestation was about to strike. Real soon.

Oh, wow, the beer people were much more simple.
Author dontime
Contributor
#18  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 15:01 | Edited by: dontime  

How about my question of whether it's legal to physically buy wine out of state, and bring it home?

From what I understand, bringing wine into the state is illegal. Enforcement is something else. But Cap and jlburd will probably weigh in.

And no matter what the law is or isn't, if the winery won't ship here, they won't ship here. And in my experience most don't. So I have a UPS box just across the state line where I receive my wine club (wasn't that your original question?) shipments.
Author dontime
Contributor
#19  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 16:54 | Edited by: dontime  

Free the grapes web site map showing PA as a non direct shipment state.

Free The Grapes State Map
Author J2K
Registered User
#20  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 17:02  

I think there are plenty of good wines to purchase in PA for good prices. On the other hand, there are times I want older vintages and PA doesn't have them. If they do, you usually have to order a case-12 or 6. Then there are concerns about storage facilities or shipping. WHere do they keep or order those older bottles from that are SLO? When I am out of state I usually look for wine stores with older vintages.
Author Mark
Contributor
#21  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 18:07 | Edited by: Mark  

WHere do they keep or order those older bottles from that are SLO?

SLO wines are not kept in inventory by the PLCB. When an SLO order is placed they place "your" order with the distributor/importer. So the answer is, it's kept wherever distributors keep their wines. And I think it's shipped by the distributor directly to your store, not to/through a PLCB warehouse, but I'm not 100% positive on that.

That's why, if you've ever done an SLO purchase, it's a two step process where you tell them what you want, they check availability with the distributor, then get back to you to confirm whether it is indeed available.

SwirlGirl, apologies for going off on such a tangent from your original question!
Author jlburd
Registered User
#22  Posted: Oct 12, 2009 18:33  

Swirlgirl-

Wine people?!?!

I resemble that remark. Like many 'wine people' I started out as a serious 'beer people' including home brewing. Wine lovers are perfectly sane, hardworking pillars of the community. We simply know what you will no doubt come to discover (assuming this curiousity blossoms): finding good wine isn't life or death, it's much more important than that.

And Mark - isn't Tangent a nice Central Coast maker of Sauv Blanc & Voigniers?
Author SwirlGirl
Registered User
#23  Posted: Oct 13, 2009 04:17  

I like ALL your comments, and I like how y'all seem intellectual. It's going to make me sad when I go to an out-of-state winery and I can't bring anything home. Maybe I can justify it similar to this....I let my kids watch PG-13 movies sometimes, and they are under 13.
Author jlburd
Registered User
#24  Posted: Oct 13, 2009 07:37  

Excellent rationalization Swirlgirl!

That sort of thinking will be very useful when you are standing in the preium wine section self-justifying the $70 for the 2007 Cakebread Cab!
Author dontime
Contributor
#25  Posted: Oct 13, 2009 11:26  

Here is a typical response from a winery when I inquired about shipping to PA:

No-wineries are permitted to ship into the state of PA. The state prohibits direct shipments of wine.
If you have an alternative state that would be an option.
Sorry if the site isn't helpful-if you would like a direct phone call we could maybe assist you.
pa


Peggy Alamano
Trade Specialist
Far Niente
PO Box 327
Oakville, CA 94562
(707) 944-2861
(707 944-2312 Fax


Doesn't matter if it is legal or not - the industry feels it is illegal and therefore the majority of wineries will not ship directly to PA.
 
 
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